Monday, February 8, 2010

Saradise Lost and Found - Chapter 12 - Saint or Slut? - A New PA Poll


I've got a new poll up: Which Term More Accurately Defines Sarah Palin to You?

Saint

Slut

67 comments:

Philip Munger said...

anon in FL - your comment was removed as untrue and hurtful.

Anonymous said...

slut...

And Phill you forgot the photo of her showing up in a mini skirt at a rarely held military commerative (held in Anch) the same afternoon she was in Fairbanks signing SOA Vet bills.

If there ever was a disrespect for military honor, that mini skirt scene and why she didn't bother to confirm her attendance is IT.


by the way, the poster BeeFL is a classic Palin supporter. Classic repulsive response and is it really warrented? Cause Palin is just a tacky slut.

Philip Munger said...

anon @ 120:05,

I thought of putting that one in there, but the pic of her slutting around in Fairbanks (top right) was at a truly somber event. The Anchorage one was at Mike Reagan's show at the PAC. That's the Sharon Stone one.

Anonymous said...

"anon in FL - your comment was removed as untrue and hurtful."

So the old man can dish it out but can't take it ?

Anonymous said...

Frankly, I don't think she is either. No way in heaven or on God's green earth is she a saint; but, other than a few questionable style choices, I've seen no evidence that she is a slut. If you need another "s" word for the survey, how about "simpleton." That one would get my vote.

Anonymous said...

How about a third choice on the poll ?

A conservative woman politician with whom we may disagree but is deserving of the same respect any other woman would get ?

Isn't there a single DEM woman out there who see's how disgusting this whole thing has gotten. I've just read through some of the comments on the threads below and I am staggered at just how repulsive some of the anti-Palin comments have gotten. This is just as bad as those nuts on the right who attack Obama because of his race. Seriously, do none of you liberal women object to comments like "slut", "whore", "She thinks with her vagina". I understand the older men on this site unloading their hatred of women onto Palin but doesn't one woman at there see where this is leading ?

nwsfm said...

How about money-grubbing media whore?

This is coming from someone a month older than she is, but has a masters degree obtained in 2 years while working full time. And looks sort of like her in terms of size and coloring, but without the wig or plastic surgery.

If she had something of substance to say or actaul accomplishments instead of pimping out her family, no one would be calling her a slut.

I was an Independent until I changed to Dem when Shrub was running in 2000.

As a psychopathic warmonger, she desreves to be called out when her actions don't match her words. That's what happens to adults.

Anonymous said...

anon@10:15 I understand the older men on this site unloading their hatred of women onto Palin but doesn't one woman at there see where this is leading ?

Yes, we do---backwards about 50 years down the path of patriarchal hatred of women led by none other than the manipulative Sarah Palin. This woman had every opportunity to show that a woman with a simple background could rise to a leadership role on her genuine merits - instead she has taken a 12 year old's meanness, an 8 year old's understanding and a prostitute's ability to get people to 'show her the money'...oh, I forgot, maybe these 'are' her only genuine merits. She's bad for Alaska, bad for the USA, and deadly for women.

Yeah, anon@10:15, we see where this is going.

Anonymous said...

Ladeez and gentleman, roll up, roll up for today's two-minute hate from Alaska ! To distract you from the train-wreck that is the Obama government, we bring you a chance to stone to death (by comment only, of course) a vile, evil woman !! This Jezebel, like all women, is only here to seduce weak men and use her devilish female charms to destroy the world as we know it ! For too long have uppity women bossed us around - now is your chance to cast them down where they belong ! Look at the way these whores dress and parade around in front of us ! Look at the way these sluts, yes I say SLUTS, dare to argue against their elders and betters. Hell has a special place for those "who think with their vaginas". Come good people and let us attack these unclean creatures and their whorish ways. Progressive Alaska has seen the ANTI-CHRIST and it is PALIN !!!!!
P.S. Please wear your white hoods and robes to the burning of the witch !

Anonymous said...

"If she had something of substance to say or actaul accomplishments instead of pimping out her family, no one would be calling her a slut."

You can't spell "actual" , does that make you a slut ?

Do all women who haven't accomplished anything qualify as "SLUTS" or just the ones you don't like?

Is our President a "SLUT" because he hasn't accomplished anything or do you reserve sexist terms for women only ?

"As a psychopathic warmonger,"

What wars has she started ? Our President is murdering innocents in Pakistan - does that make him a psychopathic warmonger" or just another dumb SLUT ?

Anonymous said...

Okay, let's all calm down, step back and see what Mr.Munger has managed to achieve with his ill-considered sexist outburst. The following comment in support of Mr.Munger was posted on this site yesterday and NOT ONE liberal has condemned it. Let's read what "Gunsmoke" posted shall we...


"To all the trolls on this blog, Mrs. Palin is a slut and a whore so get over it, it's true.

SLUT
- an unintelligent girl with low self-esteem that will do anything for attention and the approval of others

- a bitch that keeps on giving

- a female that has no self-respect

- dresses very trashy and doesnt have any class

- a woman who thinks with her vagina instead of her head

- man's best friend

- "slutty", characteristics of a slut, often in reference to style of dress or behavior

- a girl who has no respect for herself. She basically has "open for business" or "available" stamped on her forehead

WHORE
- slut" is not to be confused with "whore", as a whore is a person who may exhibit slut-like behaviors, but does so for financial gain

- one whose brain is closed shut, but whose legs are wide open

- an individual who compromises his or her principles for personal gain

- a woman or girl who sells herself for something, might be money or jewels, etc.

- a term used to describe someone who commits to an activity so much that it begins to piss** people off

- a girl who gives hand job

If you don't like it, take a hike."


Hard to believe that this is a progressive site in the 21st Century !! I never imagined that liberals would approve of comments like...

"- one whose brain is closed shut, but whose legs are wide open"

"a bitch that keeps on giving"

but then, that's just me. Congratulations PA you've helped expose us to a real sickness that is festering in the minds of today's Left. Remember Pandora's Box ?

GinaM said...

Uh Oh Phil...The Urine of Sea has got you in their sights. Saw this comment today:

Kjanlady
Can we get his address and post it on the web....along with a picture of him, his house, and the car he drives?
Today, 10:26:54 AM
– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

Phil, you know better than to poke "The Crazies"(hey, isn't that a movie coming out soon?)

Here is the link:

http://www.conservatives4palin.com/2010/02/foul-mouthed-alaska-democrat-in-new-low.html#comments

And as far as Anonymous @ 10:45am

Please stop comparing the SLUT to President Obama. She is NOT or never will she be the President of THIS United States. She is a QUITTER. He is NOT.

Laurie-Ann said...

@anon 10:22

I see that you are surprised by the response to Palin by Dem women? LOL...have you ever...just once seen or read how Palin supporters respond? They compare Palin to Obama which is hysterical considering, Palin was not nominated to run for Pres. so the comparison is moot.

They are downright nasty to posters with a different viewpoint, and call us nasty vile names. Contrary viewpoints are not even allowed on some pro Palin sites.

Palin is so ugly inside, that it shows on the outside. I am not jealous of her...I am not afraid of her....I am disgusted by her. As a woman, she does not fool me for an instant.

Did you not see her with her short wee skirt, seductively rubbing her legs? What type of professional woman behaves in that manner? I say not many.

Laurie-Ann said...

Phil...you always know when you are right on the money. The palinbots are out and screaming. They are such indefensible tools.

Jesse Cornish said...

Your poll is unnecessary, Mr. Munger, and disrespectful to women.

Laurie-Ann said...

I am a woman jesse....and I do not feel disrespected. Speak for yourself please. Look up the definition of the word slut in the dictionary. Most women do not behave in this manner.

Anonymous said...

As a woman, I am not offended by your poll, Phil. As a matter of fact, I judge Sarah to be -- A SLUT. She is offensive in so-o-o many ways and is an insult to the intelligent women of this world.

Her recent interview with Chris Wallace (where she had cheat notes on her hand) reinforces that judgment. That hiked up skirt was worn purposely and for a particular effect. And don't even get me started about how she desecrated the American flag by wrapping it around herself, and also posing for Runner's World with the American flag thrown over a chair. She's no patriot. And she's no lady.

Signed,

A female veteran

Anonymous said...

" Laurie-Ann said...

I am a woman jesse.."

Someone help me out here....what the heck is a "woman jesse"? Anyone know ?

Anonymous said...

." I am not jealous of her...I am not afraid of her..."

Then why bother screeching about her ? If she is as dumb as you say then you would ignore her but she isn't dumb and she is a threat to your dumb SLUT ,Obama, so you feel justified in attacking her in the most demeaning way.

Anonymous said...

The ability to type on a phone and the ability to spell are 2 different things.

Anonymous said...

Seems the Left is in melt-down mode. They are abandoning all their principles and are resorting to racism and sexism. First Harry Reid insults all dark-skinned African-Americans and now the progressives attack women. This is officially now a hate site.

GinaM said...

Poor anonymous @ 12:34pm. I ALMOST feel sorry for you. Your desperation is so transparent. The SLUT and yes that is what she is....She's DONE. I think you know this. That's why you and your 'Bots are so frantic to explain the "writing" on the Hand(wall). Find a "REAL" person to worship. Someone much more worthy then the SLUT.

Oh goodness my VW is 'comem'... LOL

GinaM said...

Oopps...I meant WV not VW.

Jesse Cornish said...

I am a woman jesse....and I do not feel disrespected. Speak for yourself please. Look up the definition of the word slut in the dictionary. Most women do not behave in this manner.

I imagine that if the same thing was said about Mr. Munger's wife, he would not find it inoffensive.

Anonymous said...

@Jesse, are you married to Sarah Palin? Or is that your fantasy showing?

Anonymous said...

"Your desperation is so transparent. The SLUT and yes that is what she is....She's DONE."

Rally, is it desperation to expect that women aren't called sluts because their political views are different from our own ?
Would you be happy with me calling Michelle Obama a Slut because I don't agree with her views on this country ?

Derek M.

Anonymous said...

Whatever one thinks of Palin's politics, and I don't approve of Palin's politics--this is clearly a sexist poll.

I'm tempted to stick my rhetorical thumb in the author's rhetorical eye and call him a sexist pig and probably a perverted old man, but hey, I'll stick to a more substantive point:

Why don't you criticize Palin's policies instead of using sexist hate speech to single her out?

I'm way to the left of Obama and you so-called coward "progressives" but I don't feel the need to use hate speech like you do on someone like Palin. You might find these people are people too, your neighbors and family members, and not evil monsters.

To those of you that support Palin: Not all of us liberals hate women as these bitter old Obama-apologists on this site do. Palin has the wrong solutions---don't get me wrong, left-wing populism is the way to go--but not all of us on the left are sexist pigs either.

Mel said...

I am a woman, consider myself a progressive (though not a Democrat), am more-or-less a member of the Alaska progressive blogger community (though I'm trying to focus my blog on writing nowadays) & have already registered my dislike of Phil's terminology & this poll privately to Phil. And now am doing it publicly.

As I wrote privately, I won't vote in this poll. Given a forced choice between "saint" & "slut" is far too reminiscent of the "virgin" versus "whore" typology that women have been relegated to for centuries. I don't see Sarah Palin, however deluded she is or creepy her views, as either. As ridiculous as I find her political posturing to be, & as scary I find it that anyone takes seriously her potential as a leader, I have less & less confidence that namecalling from "our" side is any more productive or useful than the namecalling from the Palin supporters.

I am disappointed that Phil used this terminology, especially because there is so much else I find to respect in his work -- as a composer, as a teacher, as a blogger, & as someone supportive of the work of other progressive people. I am further disappointed read many of these comments & find so many other self-identified progressives defending his use of this language -- in pretty much the same hypocritical way that Palin condemned Rahm Emanuel for how he used the word "retard" but defended Rush Limbaugh's use of the same word.

It's clear that just as much on the left as on the right, too many people are willing to excuse their "own side" for employing the same tactics that they condemn the "other side" for. As scary as I find extreme people on the right to be, I find this behavior by people who are presumably on my side to be just as scary. You might as well be on two sides of a wall lobbing grenades at one another, for how likely these tactics will lead to any kind of peace or good for our nation.

Can we find some way to engage with our political opposition without just creating more hostility -- none of which is likely to encourage our opposition's better nature & better thinking, any more than their namecalling & disrespect towards us encourages our better nature & thinking?

Mel Green
Henkimaa.com

crystalwolf aka caligrl said...

Oh my! Conservatives4Palin, are all wee weed up, got their panties in a wad, b/c Paylin is called a slut.
Should be effing retarded slut.
☺☺☺
And for all of you going to insult me, save your breath. Saint Sarah will need your screams soon, the R's are about to take her warmongering ass down.

Anonymous said...

To Mel Green and anon @ i:31, thank you from the bottom of my heart ! You have both helped to restore my faith in the real progressives of America. My family are equally split on the Palin issue but none of us have had to resort to the kind of insults I've read on this site. I searched all the threads on this blog since the "slut" epithet was first used against Palin and you are the first people of the Left (or liberal if you will) that have spoken out against the use of this term. Let's all try and keep our political debates free of sexist or racist insults. President Obama has asked for more civility in our national debate, can we strive for that ?

Anonymous said...

"Oh my! Conservatives4Palin, are all wee weed up, got their panties in a wad, b/c Paylin is called a slut.
Should be effing retarded slut."

Seriously, "crystalwolf", you should ease off on the abuse and stop embarrassing yourself and the owner of this site. It's too much, already.

crystalwolf aka caligrl said...

Seriously anon@2:08pm yes all you at the ocean of pee are pure as driven snow...right? Rich is the one calling Phil names that beeFl is repeating good little parrot that it is! I was called a name 3 nights ago over-there and threatened with bodily harm!!!
You are a bunch of hypocrites just like Paylin! If anyone doesn't like grifter PAYlin you attack them.
Sanctimonious hypocrites!!!!
And hey anon's aren't allowed at the ocean are they??? What would RAM say? Get off my blog Mother effer???
Oh yeah...Liars all of you!

ZIP NOLAN said...

My God, I stop visiting this blog for a few weeks and I miss all the excitement !!

What happened...I haven't read this much sexist abuse on a blog since......no, I haven't read this much sexist abuse on a blog ever. The nearest I've seen to it are the scrawlings on a men's room wall in New York many moons ago. Y'all kind of went crazy, I guess.

It seems like the logical conclusion to all the Palin-hatred that this site has been building up over the months. What a shame y'all can't talk poilitics without dragging us all into the gutter.

Sheesh, I've just read "Gunsmoke" and "Crystalgirl"'s comments on the thread below this one and I'm off to take a shower. Nasty stuff.

Philip Munger said...

Me4l,

Thanks for your comment. I appreciate your views now, as always.

vilca said...

But, but, but, you just can't take the slut out of palin, whatever whitewash you care to use. She's just hopelessly that.

Crystalwolf, I can still see the sparks flying out of your comments. Go Girl. But, aghhh, c'mon, give the trolls a break. They often get bored on their own sites, with all the verbal incest, who can write the most grandiloquent praise of the grifter. I wonder how many of them keep from their spouse hidden pictures of the half gov. They are just looking for something a little stimulating, sad they are out of their league.

Anonymous said...

"I can still see the sparks flying out of Crystalwolf's comments. Go Girl."

You guys need to seriously step up your meds, please. Don't you realize that you're turning this blog into a laughing stock ? Your kind of rants are better suited to being screamed in your own basements in the middle of the night as opposed to being made public via this blog.

Martha Unalaska Yard Sign said...

Mel, good to hear your voice!

Phil, this illustrates Palin's "star" power - the ability to make people want to eat their eyeballs because she's so catty and stupid. I've had days myself where I just wanted her standing in front of me so I could slap her in the face for all of her derogatory & false comments about people who I know.

The Twit strikes again - spreading her nasty cloud of doom and gloom. It's her legacy, and what a sorry one it is indeed. Someone commented on another site that she'd be perfect for Roller Derby and my giggles just wouldn't stop. It's perfect for her! I can't get the image out of my mind so I guess I get to chuckle the rest of the day.

And let's not nice ourselves to death here - yes, it's a brutal word to call someone but as usual, she acts that way and brought it on herself. Phil will get over it and go on to more highbrow observations and pursuits. I've held my tongue hundreds of times but sometimes the truth just slips out.

What comes around, really does go around sometimes. Now, back to station identification and eating my eyeballs.

Anonymous said...

MarthUYS! Perfect!!!!Roller Derby!!!
Brillant!!!
Perfect to showcase her talents or no talents and she can act slutty and bitchy and vile!!!

Anonymous said...

"The Twit strikes again - spreading her nasty cloud of doom and gloom. "

Wow, you people are the brightest bulbs in the box are you ? FYI , it wasn't Palin that started ranting about the five words she wrote on her hand. It wasn't Palin that used the word "SLUT".

Interesting to note that Martha is col with the use of the word SLUT....I also love her comment about Palin "bringing it on herself
- isn't that what misogynists and old, bitter women used to say about rape victims back in the day ? Time you people got out of the 1950s.

Anonymous said...

For those that think we Dem, Liberal, Progressive or Independent women should be insulted by how Palin is discussed hasn't been paying attention.

When a woman who claims (yet never shows in her actions)that she must be taken seriously posing in running shorts while doing knee bends, stretches, bending over to show cleavage and posing in her skin tight shorts while disrespecting the flag deserves my respect.

The same woman who repeatedly stated my President pals around with terrorists because some other person had a tea & coffee reception for politicians and invited Bill Ayers and his wife. I owe the woman who practically begged her supporters to murder my President respect?

This same woman who said Rush can say Retard as long as he's joking but anyone not on the right can not while giving a whole $1,000 of 2.1 million to the cause fighting for children like her 'prop' son?? This woman deserves my respect?

The same woman who called another Alaskan woman suffering from cancer 'a cancer' because she was an opponent? She deserves my respect?

Does the woman who drug her son in the cold half dressed, without his glasses or hearing aids to screaming crowds only to pass him off as soon as she saw the glaring lights? That woman deserves my respect?

How about the woman who publicly humiliated her teenage daughter to advance her income and popularity while not considering the gossip, hearsay, criticism, etc. that would be dumped on that child? The same woman who made that daughter and her on again off again boyfriend pretend for the whole wide world to be getting married when the kids knew they'd barely been speaking up til then? That woman deserves my respect?

The same woman who takes her kids out of school and drags them all over the country because someone else is paying rather than doing her best to create a sense of normalcy and consistency in their lives? That woman deserves my respect?

I'm supposed to respect a woman who is reeatedly caught in lie after lie after lie after lie and quits her job when the going gets tough. That woman deserves my respect?


Shall I go on? How in the world are we supposed to respect this woman? She certainly isn't a role model for any women except those that want to make their way in life through dishonesty, taking wasn't insn't yours to take, taking advantage of others, using others for personal gain, lying, nepotism, sexism, etc.

WHAT HAS SHE EVER DONE TO DESERVE THE RESPECT OF OTHER WOMAN IN HER CAREER?

NADA!!

She serves no example of hard work or selflessness. Review her PAC expenditures very closely and then tell me this woman deserves our respect. More money spent on herself and paying out to all her long time friends and cronies for newly created 'positions' in her PAC.

Sorry but just the mere fact that Sarah is female does not make her worthy of other women's respect any more than expecting every single black person or every man must respect Obama just because he's half black or because he's a man.

When will you Sarah followers get that through your head? You can't expect her to be given a certain amount of respect if you don't expect that the sitting duly elected PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES deserves respect.

Are you just as digusted by the vile things said about him and his wife when you read them? I bet not.

Sarah will be respected when she finally does something respectable, but so far all she's done is line her pockets with all of your money, but she has no intention or ability to use that money to run the country. Your cash will end up where everyone else's money that donates to her is going.............in her safe in Wasilla.

Let me ask you this.......

Do you respect Hilary Clinton just because she's a woman and mean things have been said about her or is it just your dear Sarah?

Thought so!

Martha Unalaska Yard Sign said...

Hey, it's the Quoting Troll! Thanks for reading my post! Quote away! Quote, Quote Quote! Have fun Quoting!

Anonymous said...

Calling a woman a woman a "slut" for her bad behavior is not in any way the same as blaming a rape victim for being sexually assaulted. Nor is it in the same category as charging victims for rape exams...or desecrating the American flag by wrapping it around your body or posing with it draped over a chair.

Let's compare apples to apples, please. If the Naughty Monkey fits...

crystalwolf aka caligrl said...

I think Phil and all of us calling palin a slut and whatever, well hey its just Satire! LOL!
Where is your sense of humor?
Didn't rush say retard, retard, retard??? Satire right??? hahahaha...even Sarah thought is funny no different here...Satire.
Get over it.

crystalwolf aka caligrl said...

Yeah, if the naughty monkey fits...!
She wasn't being a slut sitting there at the teabagger Q&A with her skirt up to her vajjayjay and rubbing her hand seductively (to remove the ink on her hands) and caressing the mic...no that wasn't slutty at all! That was the action of a person who wants all the old geezers to donate to her pac. The actions of a grifter slut. *Satire* like Rushbo...doncha know! :)

Anonymous said...

"When a woman who claims (yet never shows in her actions)that she must be taken seriously"

Evidence please of a single quote where Sarah Palin said "I must be taken seriously" ? If you can't show evidence of that then there's no point reading the rest of your post.

"Thanks for reading my post!"

Au contraire, thanks for reading my post. Any chance you'll get around to answering my points....or is that above your pay grade ?

"She wasn't being a slut sitting there at the teabagger Q&A with her skirt up to her vajjayjay and rubbing her hand seductively"

And this is what passes for political discussion on Progressive Alaska. Hilarious. Time for someone to organize an intervention...

Anonymous said...

"or desecrating the American flag by wrapping it around your body or posing with it draped over a chair."

Your slut Obama's best friend (Bill "terrorist" Ayers)posed for the NYT wiping his feet on the flag...I bet you didn't whine about that.

Mel said...

In essence, most of the progressive rationalizations for Phil's use of a sexist & demeaning word to describe Palin amount to "Palin & her supporters use demeaning insults to describe us & our leaders, so that gives us the okay to do it to her & her supporters." This is hypocrisy.

In essence, most of the Palin supporters who are visiting this blog to criticize Phil for his use of this sexist & demeaning word to describe Palin are correct that his use of the word is sexist & demeaning, but have no compunction about using equally demeaning language to insult Phil, Obama, or other people with whom they disagree. This is hypocrisy.

Both sides are being equally destructive to our social fabric as a civil culture. I'm a progressive, & yet I don't want to be on the side of anyone who simply stands in their corner lobbing insults at their opponents. If we want a civil culture in which everyone's rights are respected, we're not going to get it by refusing dialog with those who disagree with us -- which is what this oh-so-very-witty (not) lobbing of demeaning insults amounts to. It's all fine & nice to feel righteous about how intelligent your own side is & how horrible & stupid & purposely perverse the arguments of the other side are -- but in reality, you're only making yourselves mirror images of one another.

And leaving no room for people who really want this country to work. For everyone, not just "our" side, no matter which "side" that may happen to be.

-- Mel Green
Henkimaa.com

(And here's my blog post on this debacle.)

Martha Unalaska Yard Sign said...

Mel,

Well said! I think you have great timing. Thanks for all that you do!

ZIP NOLAN said...

Thank you kindly for your thoughtful words , Mel. You make some extremely valid points and your polite tone is a refreshing breath of air on this blog.

Whilst I agree with everything you say, I have to point out (having reread all the posts after Mr.Munger launched his "slut" tirade) that initially those who objected to the "slut" word were pretty damned polite and only seemed to resort to the Obama abuse as a "see, how do y'all like it when it gets used against you" tactic. Still wrong, I know, but kinda understandable in the circumstances. I'm also at a loss at why this blog allowed "Gunsmoke's" vile posting to stand with no attempt at all to condemn it or warn posters about such language. I've been threatened with being banned from this site merely for questioning the Healthcare Reforms and yet one of the most misogynistic rants I've seen was allowed to go unchallenged.

Anyway, I'm glad to see that some on the Left are as outraged about this whole episode as I am.

ZIP NOLAN said...

Well since I'm catching up on this stuff, Martha, I'm kinda surprised to see you applauding Mel's comments. As far as I can see you made no objection to Mr. Munger's use of the word slut or to the misogynst insults of "crystalwolf" or " gunsmoke". In fact, I think I read you saying that when it came to use of the word "Slut" , Palin bought it on herself.

I'm a great believer in speaking out against any abuse of women and next time around (and I'm hoping there ain't a next time around) if this stuff happens, I would hope that you and the other regulars at this site would have the strength to outright condemn this kind of sexual insult and not sit on the fence. Thank you, kindly.

Mel said...

Zip, I appreciate your laudatory comments about what I've said... but I've got some issues as well.

I admit to also being confused by Martha's appreciation of my comments when she had earlier said that Palin brought it on herself.

But I'm just as confused by you pulling her on the carpet for that, when just minutes before you gave a similar rationalization for the use of anti-Obama abuse by Palin supporters. "Still wrong, I know, but kinda understandable in the circumstances."

Yep, just as understandable as Martha saying what she said.

Yes, something can be both "wrong" & "understandable" at the same time. But it was still wrong when she did it, & still wrong when you did it. And it's not exactly honest communication for you to criticize her about this particular wrongness, when you had just done it yourself 13 minutes previously.

Not to mention that a visit to C4P & other pro-Palin sites shows a culture that is just as rife with demeaning insults of Palin critics, Obama supporters, & liberals in general to rival anything one can find here or on other liberal/progressive blogs about Palin, her supporters, or convervatives in general. And that long predated Phil's use of slut on this blog.

Can we learn not to rationalize our own wrongs, in attacking the wrongs of others? Think of how much more trust there would be in our political discussions with each other if we could learn to hold ourselves to the same standards we hold our opponents to, & could learn to apologize when we're wrong, & to actually listen to each other instead of simply put our fingers in our ears saying "lalalalala" in one moment, and then pointing fingers & calling each other nasty names in the next.

I think Phil messed up with these slut posts. But I would never have felt the need to post what I've posted, if I didn't see a whole lot of other messing up by other people too. I've messed up similarly myself, in the past. I'm trying to do better. I wish everyone else would too.

Anonymous said...

"But it was still wrong when she did it, & still wrong when you did it."

So, defending women from sexist abuse is wrong. At least someone stuck up for women when all the regulars on this site were piling on the hate.

anon. said...

How about we just call her what she is, a wanton and shameless hussy, and be done with it ?

freeper

Anonymous said...

I'm a proud Democrat and I consider myself a progressive. I have not much use for Breiflygovernor Palin, and will happily admit to having had some online fun at her expense. Nevertheless:

As a high school teacher (in AK), I hear the word "slut" from time to time, and I never let it go unchallenged. Like the N-word, or the F-word for a gay man, it's just never okay. It carries connotations, not just around the person being spoken about - bad enough - but around all members of that group (women, in this case). As Mel has eloquently explained, it says more about the speaker's assumptions about women (that it's possible to *be* a "slut," for instance) than it does about the spoken-about. Students will sometimes - you try not to let them go into too much detail - try to make the case that the object of their derision has made wardrobe or relationship choices that justify it. But the problem is *with* the label, and with the power one assumes when one feels entitled to use it: the right to pass judgment on another based on her sexuality. It's one of the most anti-woman - and anti-progressive - terms one can employ. It's never fair.

About respect, I tell my students that there are four kinds, and it's important to know which one you're talking about. You owe human respect to every human being on the planet: you don't steal from them, you don't cheat them, assault them or insult them. Just because they're people; it has nothing to do with who they are or what they do. Status respect goes to the position, not to the person; you stand up when the jury enters the courtroom, you call the mayor "Mr. Mayor." Personal respect, that's the only one you get choices about: you choose your own criteria. If you particularly admire someone, or especially dislike them, that's up to you, and you can find appropriate ways to say so, so long as you remember that that doesn't cancel out the ethical imperative of the first two. And self respect means that you value your own humanity, and you expect others to acknowledge your role in the community, and you know your own strengths, and you challenge your own shortcomings - and you never, ever let somone else's choices be the justification for your own. You're better that that.

I'm posting here because I very much liked Mel's take on this (on her bolg), but so much of the above commentary reads like a bad day in ninth grade ("Oh yeah, well, HE said 'retard' FIRST!") - of which I get more than enough - that I'm reminded why I pretty much never read the anonymous comments to anything.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
"or desecrating the American flag by wrapping it around your body or posing with it draped over a chair."

Your slut Obama's best friend (Bill "terrorist" Ayers)posed for the NYT wiping his feet on the flag...I bet you didn't whine about that.

February 8, 2010 4:47 PM

----------------
Actually, I consider Ayers a terrorist and worse for his previous criminal actions.

I am not an Obama fan.

No one should desecrate the flag.

And yes, $carah is still "$carah".

anon. said...

The poll is running 80 percent in favor of slut.

ZIP NOLAN said...

Well, Mel, I guess it didn't take long for that friendly facade to crumble did it :0)

You say I wasn't honest in my communication. I'm kinda at a loss as why you think that. We were talking about the use of the term "slut" and misogyny in general. I pointed out that people had, in frustration at the level of sexist abuse aimed at Palin, attacked this blog but at no point did I see any of those folks using sexist or racist comments in reply.

I guess we think differently but I see sexism or racism as outside the bounds of normal political banter. The pro-Palins resorted to neither while the anti-Palins used the most vile anti-female comments I'd come across in a blog.

When it came to Martha's comment I was surprised that a liberal woman "stood by" while the sexist abuse poured out but then came along and agreed with you after the damage was done. If you think I was being "dishonest" for pointing that out then so be it.

I'm sorry you saw fit to attack me but I guess for some folk ,leftist politics will always trump sexism. Sorry, I ain't that kind of person....if people use sexist or racist laguage I'll always be 'gainst it whatever their political leanings. Peace.

Martha Unalaska Yard Sign said...

Mel, Shouldn't be any confusion here. I don't condone the use of that word & was very stunned by Phil using it, but I also know how Palin can push the buttons of the most stoic, sensible and civilized person. I've seen it happen in Juneau many times.

I recognize a post that probably would not have made it to the blog had Phil mailed it to himself and read it a day later, so I moved on, knowing that he will, too.

Anonymous said...

"I recognize a post that probably would not have made it to the blog had Phil mailed it to himself and read it a day later, so I moved on, knowing that he will, too."

Really ? So why is he still running that misogynist poll about "Virgin or Whore"..sorry "Slut or Saint" ? And you still can't bring yourself to say it was wrong without trying to justify it. Nice try, though.

Mel said...

Zip, I guess I didn't explain myself well enough the time before.

At 5:18 PM you wrote: Whilst I agree with everything you say, I have to point out (having reread all the posts after Mr.Munger launched his "slut" tirade) that initially those who objected to the "slut" word were pretty damned polite and only seemed to resort to the Obama abuse as a "see, how do y'all like it when it gets used against you" tactic. Still wrong, I know, but kinda understandable in the circumstances.

Thirteen minutes later, you called out Martha Unalaska Yard Sign because (in your words), I think I read you saying that when it came to use of the word "Slut" , Palin bought it on herself.

Martha's exact words at 3:33 PM: And let's not nice ourselves to death here - yes, it's a brutal word to call someone but as usual, she acts that way and brought it on herself. Phil will get over it and go on to more highbrow observations and pursuits. I've held my tongue hundreds of times but sometimes the truth just slips out.

In other words, she was stating her own opinion that Phil's use of the term was understandable in the circumstances.

I felt you were calling her out for having rationalized Phil's use of a "brutal" term in very much the same way that you, 13 minutes previously, had rationalized anti-Obama insults: that it was understandable given the circumstances. Yes, I did find that to be dishonest: you criticized her for doing much the same thing you did yourself just 13 minutes previously. I also felt it was dishonest to state the entire argument only in the context of this post & its comments. Virulent anti-Obama sentiment and virulent anti-Palin sentiment, & the demeaning insults that accompany them, go far beyond this one post & its comments. It's not a matter of "Phil started it all by calling Palin a 'slut'" as your comment would seem to indicate. The insults have been going on for a long time, & both sides are just as much at fault for it. Your comments seemed to be aimed at blaming only one side; while your own side, naturally, was only acting "understandably" in defense.

No. Both sides -- including yours -- were acting "understandably" but both sides -- including yours -- were wrong. Which is what I've been saying all along. So much for your statement about me that "I'm sorry you saw fit to attack me but I guess for some folk ,leftist politics will always trump sexism." Please reread: if I was attacking you, I was just as much attacking the leftists who engage in let's hold only our opponents accountable for bad behavior politics.

Mel Green
Henkimaa.com

Mel said...

Response to Zip, part 2 (because it wouldn't fit in the previous comment)

You wrote, I guess we think differently but I see sexism or racism as outside the bounds of normal political banter. The pro-Palins resorted to neither while the anti-Palins used the most vile anti-female comments I'd come across in a blog.

I'm glad you're against sexist/racist language no matter the speaker's political leanings. Me too. That's why I spoke up to begin with: as a progressive dismayed by use of sexist language to attack Palin by other progressives, including my friend Phil. Further, I'm against demeaning insults across the board -- not just because of sexism & racism, but on any grounds whatsoever, no matter where they turn up. Anonymous at 6:32 PM has a great explanation of why: You owe human respect to every human being on the planet: you don't steal from them, you don't cheat them, assault them or insult them. Just because they're people; it has nothing to do with who they are or what they do. If all of us could abide by that, we'd have a lot more success at ironing out our differences. I don't always succeed at that, but I try. I hope you do too. If I misread anything you said, I hope you'll clarify or correct.

As an addendum, on second reading of Martha's 3:33 comment, I do have to admit that she was not clear at that point about calling Palin a slut was wrong. And so I will amend my earlier statement by saying that you, Zip, were at least clear from the beginning in stating that the anti-Obama insults were wrong.

I'm very glad to see that Martha has now clarified that she doesn't condone use of that word -- thanks Martha -- though I appreciate Anonymous at 7:33 PM pointing out that she still hasn't unequivocally stated that Phil's use of the term was wrong.

For my part, Anonymous @ 7:33 PM, I unqualifiedly think it was wrong. And if Phil does indeed "move on" as Martha hopes, I hope that "moving on" will include a deletion of the poll & an apology for having posted it & using the slut insult to begin with.

Mel Green
Henkimaa.com

My own blog post on this can be read here.

ZIP NOLAN said...

Mel, I sincerely appreciate your explanation of your comments to me and I see what you're saying. I probably didn't explain myself as well as I could, I guess. I wasn't so much concerned at the brutal language used by both sides in the "debate" after Mr.Munger's initial "Slut" headline, as I was by the sheer level of sexist abuse. To their credit I didn't see any pro-Palin comments that used either sexist or racist insults but the anti-Palin comments were truly vile in their use of misogynistic insults and imagery - "Open her legs", "effing retarded slut" etc. .

The anti-Obama comment I referred to as "understandable" was where an anonymous commentator basically said "how would you guys like it if I called Obama a slut"....which they then proceeded to do BUT they didn't resort to racist abuse and obviously using "slut" against a man has nowhere near the stigma it does when applied to a woman.

I'll repeat that my biggest hates are sexism and racism....petty insults I can take.. I know people get more riled about politics then by anything else but misogyny and racism are things that cross the line for me.

So I guess I didn't think that someone objecting to the use of the term "slut" by deliberately using it to shock people by applying it to the President (where it doesn't really apply anyway) was equivalent to a woman (Martha) who won't condemn sexism when it comes from someone she respects.

Okay, I kinda think I've managed to even confuse myself.

Anyway, please accept my apologies for any harshness in my previous reply to you. I think when it comes to the important stuff regarding human dignity and respect we're pretty much on the same page. Thank you for your thoughtful and articulate comments.

alaskapi said...

When there's a category for obscurantist extraordinaire I'll vote.
Zip-
As an old lady, let me tell you, you missed one of the stock-in-trade sexist jabs one of the pro-SP folks slid in there...
Calling, insinuating, etc that another woman is jealous of an attractive woman is one of the oldest simplest ways to 'put a woman in her place" by reducing any issue to some emotional hysteric on the part of the "jealous" gal.
Mel- I mostly agree with you.
Phil- I mostly agree with Mel.

Mel said...

Thanks, Zip. I think we're good with each other.

I'm already thinking a lot about this whole business of how to have a civil political culture, not to mention a truly democratic one that respects & protects the rights of everyone -- which this one sure doesn't -- because of research I'm doing for an SF novel I'm writing. I'm looking especially at consensus styles of collaborative decisionmaking.

Some of my response to what I'm reading for research is starting to show up on my blog -- my best way of being a political blogger nowadays is in relation to what I'm trying to put into my own fiction writing.

(Last year I did a lot of political blogging, especially about a proposed ordinance for the Muni of Anchorage which would have added sexual orientation & gender identity to the list of personal characteristics it would be illegal to discriminate on. Wow did I hear a lot of demeaning insults during that whole thing -- coming primarily from the right. And yep, I'm a lesbian, & yep my ex-partner is a female-to-male transgender -- so this business of insult is one I take quite personally. And much appreciation to Phil Munger who was a staunch & supportive ally all the way through the nastiness that we around here call the Summer of Hate.)

It's now very obvious, as a consequence of my reading, that our political culture suffers from an assumption that one side has to win, the other has to lose -- & so both sides keep knocking each other in the heads instead of actually trying to work together for the good of all. Too much distrust, because our very political structure is designed to keep people at odds with each other.

So that's kinda where I'm at. I'd like a society structured on the premise that each & every individual's personhood & rights will be honored & protected, that each & every individual has a say in the decisions that affect her or his life. Without exception. All of which are based upon my own deepheld beliefs about the integrity of every person as a Self.

Philip Munger said...

alsakapi,

just home from 2 board meetings. About to finish typing up the minutes, but I wanted to thank everyone who has commented here today, pro and con.

Mel said...

Alaskapi to Zip:
As an old lady, let me tell you, you missed one of the stock-in-trade sexist jabs one of the pro-SP folks slid in there...
Calling, insinuating, etc that another woman is jealous of an attractive woman is one of the oldest simplest ways to 'put a woman in her place" by reducing any issue to some emotional hysteric on the part of the "jealous" gal.


Good catch Alaskapi! No, I don't dislike Palin because she's attractive. Wow, think of all the women I'd dislike if I disliked women based on attractiveness! No, I dislike her because I think she's dishonest (the truth is whatever comes out of her mouth at the time), hypocritical, & opportunistic, to name but just the topmost reasons. As I told my brother-in-law when she announced her intent to resign last July, the one thing Palin & I can agree on is that Alaska is better off without her being our governor. Wow, after Frank Murkowski, who'da thought anything could be worse. But it was.

Anonymous said...

No. No. No. This is not good. Usually respect PA and his writing, but this is wrong-headed on so many levels. Don't know what possessed you to post this Phil, but it's beneath you. Not voting.